Author Topic: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.  (Read 77011 times)

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 23:51:26 »
Nu svars ir relatīva lieta,nespried pēc manas dakšas,skaidrs,ka tērauda izpildījumā viņa ir nepieklājīgi smaga,bet pašlaik es nevaru un negribu ieguldīt ap štuku titānā.Tā Tesi dakša pirmajā variantā svēra,ja nekļūdos, 3,5kg.Neesmu svēris Hondas dakšu,bet diezvai vieglāka.
Varu dereet ka nav vieglaaka :)
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 00:43:59 »
Reiz ar Mežamāri runājām par parasto supportu & radiālo supportu starpību.

Quote
Around 2003, motorbikes started to hit the showrooms with a new feature - radial brakes. The magazines and testers will all tell you that radial brakes make the bike stop quicker. Not true - they have nothing to do with stopping power and everything to do with the design of the front forks of the bike. More and more bikes are coming out with upside-down forks. ie. instead of the fat canister part of the fork being at the bottom of the assembly, it's at the top. This means that the fork pistons are now the part of the suspension with the wheel attached to them. It also means that it's impossible to put a stiffening fork brace down there now because the brace would need to move with the wheel, and the length of the fork pistons precludes that.

The stiffness of the front end is now entirely dependent on the size of the front axle. Bigger axle = stiffer front end. A side-effect of this design was that traditionally-mounted brake calipers could cause a lot of vibration in the steering because of flex between the wheel (with the brake disc bolted to it), and the fork leg (with the caliper). The slight tolerance allowed by floating brake rotors couldn't compensate for the amount of flexing in the forks. To reduce the brake-induced fork vibration, the brake calipers were moved around the rotors slightly so that they fell into the front-rear alignment of the wheel axle. There's less lateral flex at that point, which means less or no vibration. The caliper mounts were changed too. Traditional calipers bolt on to the forks with bolts going through them at 90° to the face of the brake rotor. With radial calipers, the bolts are aligned parallel to the brake rotor - effectively also in the front-rear alignment of the wheel. This design is a trickle-down technology from superbike racing where a radial caliper mount allows the racing teams to use different diameters of brake rotor by simply adding spacers between the caliper and the mounting bracket.



Rezumē: radiālā stiprināšana, kā tāda nemaina bremzēšanas ceļu, bet dod iespēju uzlikt lielākus bremžu diskus izmantojot distancerus starp supportu & stiprinājumu. (Aizņemts no MotoGP)

Un suporta novietojums pret dakšu  ir svarīgs, jo otrā bildes daļā pievienotais ar peldošo supportu kompensē vibrāciju, kas rodas dakšai deformējoties bremzējot..

:shura_tagad_gudrs:
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 00:45:42 »
Un par bremžu mašīnītēm:

Quote
Radial and conventional/axial master cylinders differ in the orientation of the piston relative to the handlebar and to the pull direction of the lever. The conventional design places the piston axis parallel to the handlebar and perpendicular to the lever pull direction. The radial design puts the piston axis parallel to the lever pull direction and perpendicular to the handlebar. Radial and axial master cylinders are functionally the same.

The main advantage of the radial design per se is that it moves the lever pivot point inward toward the centerline of the bike so that the same pull force develops a smaller moment about the connection point to the handlebar. This reduction in bending moment results in less flexing of the master cylinder housing. Any reduction in flexing of brake parts such as in the lever, MC housing, brake lines, calipers and caliper mounts add up to better brakes with better feel (modulation.) Also, aftermarket radial designs are generally stiffer than the OEM designs because they are machined from alloy billet material.

The main reason (other than for appearance and weight savings) that Ducati owners replace the factory set-up with a radial aftermarket unit is to obtain a different MC piston size (hydraulic ratio) and lever pivot point distance (mechanical ratio.) This allows you to selectively increase or decrease the amount of pull force required to develop the same force at the brake pads by using a larger or smaller MC piston diameter. This combined with a shorter or longer distance between the lever pivot point and the piston actuation link will shift the control to one of more power, or more sensitivity if you prefer.

Keep in mind however, changing your stock master cylinder to an aftermarket radial design will NOT give you more braking power to help you stop sooner.

A radial master cylinder with a different piston diameter and/or lever fulcrum-to-piston distance will only change the feel of the brakes at the lever. So keep in mind that Ducati chose a master cylinder size to give you the best modulation characteristics (feel, sensitivity and control) for your bike.

Good modulation means good feedback to the rider during a stop. A good braking system needs to establish the closest linear relationship possible between the force applied to the brake lever and the actual deceleration of the bike. Stopping power is technically easy to achieve, but achieving it along with good proportional braking response is more difficult. This, I feel, is the major factor influencing braking quality.

That’s not to say that the Ducati engineering department’s choice is best for all riders or riding conditions. The best choice for the track isn’t the best choice for the street.

Different riders have different preferences and we’re all adaptable. A rider is able to compensate for one performance drawback to gain an advantage with another. But again, it's situational dependent; a braking system that gives repeated stops from 150mph with the force application of one finger is not necessarily optimum for a 40mph panic stop in traffic. Even though a rider is adaptive to a braking system's general behavior doesn't mean that in an emergency that he'll use a light one-finger pull to stop.

So let’s move on to your choices.

First, there’s a different master cylinder size requirement for single rotor systems than for dual rotor systems. A dual rotor set-up has a lot more caliper pistons to move so a larger volume of hydraulic fluid has to be moved by the master cylinder piston.

Also, since different Ducati models have different size calipers and rotors you can’t always translate a recommended master cylinder size to another setup.

A master cylinder size designation is written AAxBB where AA is the diameter of the piston in mm, BB is the fulcrum-to-piston distance in mm.

The master cylinder piston diameter is chosen based on the number and size of the caliper pistons.

A fulcrum-to-piston distance affects two things: the amount of force needed at the lever, and the distance that the lever needs to be pulled through (to displace and compress the same amount of hydraulic fluid which in turns forces the caliper pistons against the rotor discs) to yield the SAME stopping power.

Single Disc

The Brembo aftermarket radial 16mm diameter master cylinders offer you the choice of a brake lever fulcrum-to-piston distance of either 16mm or 18mm. The stock Brembo lever has a 16mm dimension.

So your choice is either 16x16 or 16x18.

From the geometry, a 18mm lever will need to be pulled a 11% shorter distance than a 16mm lever but will at the same time require more lever force than a 16mm to stop the same distance.

Dual Disc

The Brembo aftermarket radial 19mm diameter master cylinders offer you the choice of a brake lever fulcrum-to-piston distance of either 16mm, 18mm or 20mm. The stock lever is 16mm.

So your choice is either 19x16, 19x18 or 19x20.

19x16 (stock) requires the least lever effort but the longest pull distance for the best modulation.

19x18 requires 11% lighter pull and 11% longer pull distance than the 19x20 MC. More feel (better modulation characteristics) than the 19x20

19x20 requires the most lever force but the shortest pull. More like a trigger action.

Some riders think that this short-pull trigger action means that they have "better" brakes, but they don't - at least not for all riding conditions. What they do get is the same braking power with poorer modulation (feel) characteristics. Good for the track perhaps, but often dangerous on the street, especially in the wet. In an emergency, most of us have the instinct to grab a brake hard. So if you value a better feel, when choosing between the 19x18 and the 19x20 for the street, go for the 19X18. Better still, stay with Ducati’s choice, 19x16.

On the other hand, some prefer their lever hard.

So again, I'm not suggesting that every rider will have the same preference in a braking system's modulation characteristics. Depending on your preference (or need) you can have brakes with an initial vague feeling, a strong initial bite, or something in between. You can select pads that have better high temperature behavior. On a race bike you can select brake pad and rotor material that will survive a race without needing replacement, but on the street, materials need to be more durable and function under less severe braking conditions and more varied weather conditions.
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline mežamāris

  • Posts: 2906
  • TC4881
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 09:12:27 »
Kā zini,man tā anglene vēl stāv priekšā,tā kā sapratu 5%,nojautu 10%,bet visu pārējo jau zināju iepriekš... :bee2:

Offline MIGs

  • Posts: 10716
  • Honda CBR954 RR Fireblade, Yamaha YZF-R1
    • View Profile
    • www.streetfighters.lv
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 10:04:22 »
... +- zināms, tik piebildīšu par radiālajiem suportiem:
Pirmais ir suporta stiprinājums, kam jā ir daudz augstāk rakstīto priekšrocību, ko nebiju iedomājies- vibrēšanas utt utt, bet fakts, ka ļoti ērti pielāgoties pie diska izmēra vienkārši mainot distancerus.

Otrs punkts ir pašu cilindrīšu darbība - līdžigi kā ručkām, atšķiras tā visa padarīšana.

Es visu laiku domāju, ka starp radiālo un axiālo ručku atšķirība ir ne tikai "plecā" , bet arī tajā, ka radiālajai ručkai ir mazāka pretestība pašā ručkas mehānismā. Zinkā, jāspiež šķidrums taisni, vai ap stūri.
Tas pats uz tiem radiālajiem bremžu suportiem.

Bet teksti forši !  :)

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 10:27:01 »
Šitos Tekstus vajadzētu iztulkot & uztaisīt sf.lv teorijas bāzes sadaļu ;)
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline MIGs

  • Posts: 10716
  • Honda CBR954 RR Fireblade, Yamaha YZF-R1
    • View Profile
    • www.streetfighters.lv
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 10:30:38 »
Karogs rokās un uz priekšu !   :welcome2:

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 10:48:57 »
Karogs rokās un uz priekšu !   :welcome2:

Okej. kad iztulkošu, aizmetīšu pārlasīt, vai nav kļūdu.
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline Kobe

  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 11:36:12 »
Karogs rokās un uz priekšu !   :welcome2:

Okej. kad iztulkošu, aizmetīšu pārlasīt, vai nav kļūdu.

Tikai netulko ar gūgles palīdzību...
VRVS

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 11:48:20 »
Karogs rokās un uz priekšu !   :welcome2:

Okej. kad iztulkošu, aizmetīšu pārlasīt, vai nav kļūdu.

Tikai netulko ar gūgles palīdzību...
Tas jau nav tulkojums, taaa leeta atrabotka :D
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline mežamāris

  • Posts: 2906
  • TC4881
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2010, 12:51:43 »
Vēl par suportiem-cik bieži domājat mainīt bremžu disku izmēru?Kur tas ir aktuāli neskaitot lielo sportu?Mans subjektīvais viedoklis-priekšrocības ir,bet pārsvarā ražotājam,ne patēr'ētājam:vienus un tos pašus suportus var uzstādīt dažādiem modeļiem ar atšķirīgu br.disku diametru,vēl pie vienādiem lējumiem dakšā,suportu stiprināšanai,var uzstādīt dažāda izmēra diskus un suportus. :wondering:

Offline MIGs

  • Posts: 10716
  • Honda CBR954 RR Fireblade, Yamaha YZF-R1
    • View Profile
    • www.streetfighters.lv
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2010, 13:02:42 »
Tieši tā mežamāris. Reāli tas ir aŗi beidzot normāls standart s- baikiem, supermotkām utt visiem vienādi ( nezinu vai jau krosačiem ar ir). Idejā paņēmu no Ducati suportu, uzliku savam KTM vai Suzuki un viss.
A tā visādas pārejas, apejas, un čakars lai uzliktu suportus. Piem Savam krosačam ieliekot supermoto ratus ar 320mm bremžu disku uzreiz vajadzēja paŗeju suportam. Skaidrs, ka šādas paŗejas nav nekas briesmīgs, bet pilnīgi noteikti tas nekam nenāk par labu.
Par bremžu diskiem - nu tāpat visi atskaitot dubļu močus izmanto 320mm diskus.

Offline mežamāris

  • Posts: 2906
  • TC4881
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2010, 13:20:05 »
Nu tik skaisti nemēdz būt!Tāpat atšķirsies dakšas un br.diska novietojums pret dakšu,bet visā visumā nebūtu jau slikti un ražotājam arī itkā pofig ka tu uzstādi citas firmas komplektējošos,jo reti kad bremzes izgatavo tas pats,kas moci,tā kā spiest uz sava produkta lietošanu nav jēgas...

Offline k-k

  • Posts: 2986
  • Visu kam neslīd sajūgs un pak.bremzes :D
    • View Profile
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2010, 16:12:40 »
Vot kā ķiveres vajag taisīt  :idea5:

http://files.evisor.tv/200912/10963.flv
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 16:14:23 by k-k »
Zajebiste Street Terror

Offline MIGs

  • Posts: 10716
  • Honda CBR954 RR Fireblade, Yamaha YZF-R1
    • View Profile
    • www.streetfighters.lv
Re: Inovācijas moto pasaulē.
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2010, 16:26:20 »
Es hujeju, lai neteiktu vairāk ...   :confusedbigmouth:

Nu skaidrs, ka kaska nav praktiska, bet "tapeč, ka var" un kā vēl VAR !

Vot tikai līdz galam neiebraucu, kad ir vairāk par 3 asīm CNC aparātam -tur var sajukt prātā kautko noregulēt un izfunktierēt.... Un vai tas patiešām ir vajadzīgs, jeb tā vienkārsi ir vieglāk īstenot kad ir piem ieslīpi jāfrēzē ?! :?

+ Kaska sux - Nadziņš neregulējas ! :shura: